Dom's clinic yesterday

[peter c]

None taken, Shedder.

It is just that for drummers playing
this way. Since I have gone open, I
play both ways and the equation flat-
tens out to around 60/40%. Yes, the
argument is weak for players, who
just reverse roles but not for those
who add. Leading traditional cannot
and will not become an alternative
for those employing it.

Again, this is a solution to a new
problem - that of moving both direct-
ions as powerful and with as much
control. Even Virgil, probably the
most efficient trad-player since
Buddy does not lead with his trad-
hand. This is not about style but
physics. If you feel comfortable
playing trad and get what you want
from it, I say more power to you.

I'm not here to argue about what
way is best. I choose what seems the
best way and having come from trad,
all for myself. I need economic
solutions for my challenges today.
While I am very efficient at trad,
I am more efficient, matched.

No disrespect to you, Shedder.

[img]smile.gif[/img]

Efficiency does not concern itself
with the quality of sound but the
quantity of sound.

We have heard trad-drummers
sound as good as matched and open-
drummers, especially since the
dawn of the 2nd-HH age, as in
Weckl's influence.

However, in my opinion, without
that 2nd HH, the amount and type
of accenting, available to the
trad-player is simply not available
to the trad-player, versus the
open, matched player.

[img]cool.gif[/img]

[peter c]

Steve is one of the best examples
of trad-leading left but as close
as he is, the poetry of motion is
not comparable to Billy Cobham.

Again, we're not talking sound here.
This is mere execution and ability
to move in all directions, with as
much power, control and dexterity.

The way we sound is another matter
entirely. I hope you understand my
meaning. This is about the activity
of playing - the action, not the
sound output. This is about effort
expended and wasted motion, not the
"groove" etc.

Mangini is onto it. How he sounds is
not relevant. It's what he's doing.

As I alluded to in another thread,
what Dom is saying is not going to
resonate with everyone, right now. It
may not, ever. It does, however, with me
and I suspect that it will others, like
Dom and Rayford and others like
Blackwell Jr. etc.

Who knows, someday, it might with Virgil
and Vinnie, whose right hands are, in
my estimation, more efficient than
their left. Again that's my opinion.

Of course, what they create, trad, is
sublime. There is no doubt but let's
not confuse what they do with how they
do it. There is more than one way to
skin a cat. That it's skinned is the
most important thing. "Now, for those
who want to skin a cat more efficiently,
we have these other models..."

[img]smile.gif[/img]

By the way, I have trouble doing what
Virgil does trad, matched!

[img]eek.gif[/img]

For you guys playing trad, go for it.
It always looks pretty and two of the
greatest drummers have excelled in its
employment (Buddy and Virgil).

For me, I "see" the the beat of a
different drumͲ?*..

[img]cool.gif[/img]

<font color="#a62a2a" size="1">[ October 22, 2003 03:46 PM: Message edited by: peter c ]</font>

[XNavyDrummer]

I switched from trad. to matched while going through the US military school of music. My fellow drum students thought I was insane because if you flunked out of the school you were still in the military but not assigned as a musician. This was during Viet Nam so the pressure was on to graduate!

With the matched grip I delved into the open thing in the early '70s with a ride on both sides of the kit, floor toms on both sides of the kit an even standard high hats on both sides of the kit. After many hours of practice like this, I was pretty underwhelmed with the way I was sounding so I went back to playing crossed but stuck with matched grip all these years.

For me matched is the way to go, but I totally dig the traditional grip playing of the greats!

[shedder]

it's just my taste and opinion about trad grip. i agree with you that playing matched opened handed or not might be more physically "efficient" than trad but that efficiency only comes to apply when lets say you are playing 32nd notes all around the drum set at 200bpm. regardless of physical advantages, i personally like listening to trad grip players more than matched. i think they play more musically than matched (in general, i have my exceptions). so i'm not trying to state facts here, just my opinion. all those guys you mentioned, billy, mangini, don... they are all good players and have a lot of physical versitility but i don't like the way they sound. they sound stiff, no feel and they don't move me whatsoever. so to me the thinking is, what good is it to have physical advantages when the sound is lacking? maybe it's just a coincidence that my favorite players play trad grip... who knows. like you said, it works for me... it's what i prefer.

[peter c]

Shedder,

I know what you mean. When it
comes to sound, I have HEARD
many more trad-drummers sound
better than matched. No quest-
ion. I mean, even looking at
my favorite players, there's
no comparison.

The difference, for me, is that
today, I no longer associate
their sound with their grip. I
believe drummers choose to
play certain notes, with a
certain dynamic and that's what
separates their sound from one
to the other.

Let's also remember that most
drummers in history have learned
how to play, traditionally. That's
just the fact of the matter and
with that, there are going to be
more players that use it. I
suspect, however, that we will
see this trend change in the
future, without the help of the
monsters like Virgil, Vinnie,
David (G and W), Steve Gadd etc.

[img]wink.gif[/img]

I'll give you an example of a
matched player who sounds trad-
itional and tell me if I'm on
target:

Akira Jimbo!

How I love Akira! I think he's to
be included in the new generation
of players that are shaking the
very ground we drummers walk on.
He's got the delicate touch of
the great trad-drummers but plays
matched. He's another one of the
rare players that just slaps my
ass and calls me Sally!!!

Always dig your dialogue, Shedder,
Andy, Me.2, Bozzio and Tombo!

[img]cool.gif[/img] [img]cool.gif[/img]

<font color="#a62a2a" size="1">[ October 22, 2003 04:51 PM: Message edited by: peter c ]</font>

[FuseU1]

To quote me2:

"...To get even notes both hands HAVE to be equal No? [regardless of "grip"]
I just believe its a psycological thing with players. You're either comfortable with one or the other or both. Its just a means to an end imo..."

I agree. The debate on which grip is better is just complete BS to me, altho it's good to analyze the topic & break it down, as we've done here...

Naturally, some players were started on trad & continued on w it, so naturally their strongest forte is w it...likewise, others, matched...
I personally could'nt give 2 sh**s what grip u r using, if you sound good...

Altho i agree w the idea that matched just inherently & logically "makes more sense"...

Having said that, VC, DW, & VD SLAM w trad...

BTW - "loosening up a bit," eh, peter? [Good!] [img]wink.gif[/img]

<font color="#a62a2a" size="1">[ October 22, 2003 05:36 PM: Message edited by: FuseU1 ]</font>

[peter c]

FuseU1,

"Loosening up...(?)"

Enlighten me, please.

[img]confused.gif[/img]

Do you mean my tendency to
get philosophical with my
posts?

Sorry about that. It's all
the same to me. I can't help
it. I care too much.

[img]redface.gif[/img]

<font color="#a62a2a" size="1">[ October 22, 2003 05:49 PM: Message edited by: peter c ]</font>

[FuseU1]

I like the philosophical...
...it's more like your "He's another one of the
rare players that just slaps my
ass and calls me Sally!!!" comment [img]wink.gif[/img] ...
Quite amusing, LOL
[I've actually used that one b4, altho i think i subbed the name "Buford" or "Bubba," or something like that [or maybe Gertrude, or Prudence, eee-ven].... [img]tongue.gif[/img]

<font color="#a62a2a" size="1">[ October 22, 2003 05:55 PM: Message edited by: FuseU1 ]</font>

[peter c]

Gotcha, FuseU1.

Actually, I got it off
a bottle of hot-sauce!

You are cool.

[img]biggrin.gif[/img]

[FuseU1]

You might call me "cool," but i have now sat here on my azz in front of my PC monitor on this board for more hours in 1 day than i should...
...I am afraid that i'm now officially an "HOD Internet Geek/Ho"
[Kinda like (the) "Geico Ghecko"....]